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Question about Battle of the Gods...
Topic Started: Jun 9 2014, 05:04 AM (1,379 Views)
Saberoph Jun 9 2014, 05:04 AM Post #1
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 Just how Canon is it?

Because AT was involved, but it wasn't just him and he wasn't the only person to write the Movie, and it's directed by TOEI Animation, who did the Anime which was full of many inconsistencies, contradictions and so much failed logic. Along with the other Movies which was also inconsistencies and was filled with hax on several occasions.

So, how do we rate the BOG's Continuity?

And please come at this with an open mind and with an unbiased attitude and not say it's canon just because AT's name is attached to it, because going by that logic the Baby arc and SS4 would be canon too.

Also, when I say unbiased... that means this isn't about how canon YOU want it to be, it's about how canon it technically is.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 9 2014, 06:08 AM.
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 9 2014, 05:54 AM Post #2
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 Toriyama has said multiple times he practically wrote the whole story himself. Also, he said this:

Quote:
 
This is taken from page 96 of the TV anime guide Son Goku Densetsu:

– The “Dragon Ball” kanzenban have brought in new readers, and I think that as fans it’s only natural that they’d want to see a new “Dragon Ball Z” title. What would you think about making a new anime work about once a year or so?

Toriyama: Oh, I’d like to see that.

Nakatsuru: But by the final chapter, Goku had gotten pretty old. And even after that he was the main character for the anime-original “Dragon Ball GT”. If we’re going to be making stories left and right here, maybe we should rewind time a bit and make them stories set sometime in the past.

Toriyama: I think so too. Instead of continuing the story further and further into the future, it’d be better to do a separate episode style of story development where you go back in time and go “this sort of enemy was here, and this sort of story”. Just say “it wasn’t in the original work, but this sort of story happened”. Maybe that would be better.

i would say it's just as canon as the manga
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jun 9 2014, 05:55 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 9 2014, 06:04 AM Post #3
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 But you can't ignore that the original screenplay was NOT written by AT, so when AT came in what ever changes he made it as still based on another writers work.

That would be like someone writing a screenplay and then Stephen King coming in and rewriting most of it, but it was still based off another persons work and people saying it was a Stephen King original story... yet it clearly wouldn't be.

So far it's not been officially made canon, and the way it's preached around he is if it's not official then it's not canon.
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 9 2014, 06:29 AM Post #4
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 The original plot that yusuke watanabe wrote is completely different from what toriyama did. The only similarity they have is a god of destruction and super saiyan god.

Look at his statement from a while ago though. The movies he worked on after the series ended, are intended to have actually happened, they just weren't in the manga
Edited by Ssj3vegito96, Jun 9 2014, 06:30 AM.
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Saberoph Jun 9 2014, 06:37 AM Post #5
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 I understand that, but AT's script was still based on someone else' work. Sure, AT only used SSG but it still can't be ignored that AT did take something that wasn't his idea.

There is still nothing officially making it Canon to the Manga. I really don't have a problem with it being in the same universe as the Anime, but the Movies Manga credibility is still in question given who's all involved in it.
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+ Pyrus Jun 9 2014, 06:41 AM Post #6
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 Okay, let's think about this.

Bob Doe wrote a script for Jaws 3, intending it to be a comedy. Steven Spielberg didn't want it to be a comedy so he took the script, rewrote it and made it into a horror movie.

Who's movie is it and is it included in the Jaws "canon"?
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Saberoph Jun 9 2014, 06:45 AM Post #7
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 Well, it is based on another persons script so as long as elements of the original is still in the final product, then it technically isn't an original Steven Spielberg script.

Also, I could argue since BOG was Never a Manga then it isn't canon to the Manga because of that and should be only to the Anime because of that.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 9 2014, 06:46 AM.
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Vertical Jun 9 2014, 07:25 AM Post #8
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 If you consider any official material outside of the original manga as "canon" then you must consider all official material outside of the manga as "canon". This includes OVA's, guidebooks, invertviews etc...

Otherwise you're not discussing "canon"... you're discussing personal preference.
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The Conductor Jun 9 2014, 09:17 AM Post #9
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I think you need to define what "canon" actually means, because it seems to be getting conflated here with continuity and they're not the same thing.

Canon is the body of work as accepted by a central authority, for example Biblical canon is decided by the Pope and Dragon Ball canon is decided by Akira Toriyama, and with that in mind; Battle of the Gods is 100% absolutely canon because Toriyama has looked at it and said "Yes, this can be called Dragon Ball".

Continuity, on the other hand is the sequence of stories that form the narrative and that's where the debate is. A good example of this is the new Bardock special that came out a little while ago. It's absolutely canon, because it's an official piece of Dragon Ball material, but it's most likely not in continuity with the rest of the Dragon Ball universe. On the other side of that coin, Jaco the Galactic Patrolman isn't canon for Dragon Ball as it is not part of the Dragon Ball franchise, but it is in continuity with the Dragon Ball universe because it features characters from Dragon Ball.

As I haven't yet seen Battle of the Gods, I couldn't possibly argue either way on it's continuity. But I do disagree with the topic creator's logic. The idea that, if Toriyama didn't create wholecloth it then it doesn't count is ludicrous. Toriyama certainly did not create the idea of a baby being rocketed away from a planet before it's destruction and the baby then being adopted by a kindly pensioner, Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster did, so do we discount any idea that suggests that Goku is an alien? Of course not. And can you take it even further: Toriyama didn't even create "Son Goku", he's based (however loosley) on Sun Wukong, the Monkey King so do we discount any part of Dragon Ball that features Goku? No, ofcourse not.
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Vertical Jun 9 2014, 09:28 AM Post #10
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The Conductor
Jun 9 2014, 09:17 AM
Canon is the body of work as accepted by a central authority, for example Biblical canon is decided by the Pope and Dragon Ball canon is decided by Akira Toriyama, and with that in mind; Battle of the Gods is 100% absolutely canon because Toriyama has looked at it and said "Yes, this can be called Dragon Ball".
That is a definition of "canon" but you would be hard pressed to convince everyone that it is the only definition.

Also, something being labelled as "official" does not automatically make something "canon" to a person that considers the only "canon" to be the original released worked (i.e. the manga).
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+ ThePrinceOfSaiyans Jun 9 2014, 12:44 PM Post #11
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 It's canon IMO. Toriyama was greatly involved and keeps trying to incorporate Beerus and SSJ God into the history of Dragon Ball. For example, Toriyama thinks Beerus sealed Rou Kaioshin in the Z-Sword.
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 9 2014, 04:55 PM Post #12
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Jun 9 2014, 06:37 AM
I understand that, but AT's script was still based on someone else' work. Sure, AT only used SSG but it still can't be ignored that AT did take something that wasn't his idea.

There is still nothing officially making it Canon to the Manga. I really don't have a problem with it being in the same universe as the Anime, but the Movies Manga credibility is still in question given who's all involved in it.
Toriyama flat out said it's supposed to be in the manga
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Saberoph Jun 9 2014, 05:11 PM Post #13
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 So let me get this straight... it's preached around here that unless it's Officially stated to be canon, then it's not. But, just because AT's name is attacked to it all of a sudden even without it being official it's still deemed canon. That's a complete double standard, and if that's how it's going to be, then I've lost respect for those who use double standards.

Also following the logic that it has Dragon Ball in it's name, then the Anime it's self is Canon to the Manga then and is just as canon as it is too... that logic completely fails.

Also.
master saberoph
 
And please come at this with an open mind and with an unbiased attitude and not say it's canon just because AT's name is attached to it, because going by that logic the Baby arc and SS4 would be canon too.

Also, when I say unbiased... that means this isn't about how canon YOU want it to be, it's about how canon it technically is.
.
Edited by Saberoph, Jun 9 2014, 05:32 PM.
Batman Arkham Games Discussion.
http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8487015/1/
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http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8410747/1/
Dragon Ball Game Talk 2.0
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+ Ssj3vegito96 Jun 9 2014, 05:39 PM Post #14
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 I don't think it's canon because toriyama attached to it. I think it's canon because he actually said that it belongs in the original work
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Mihawk Jun 9 2014, 06:30 PM Post #15
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 I don't have an issue with giving it canon on a level higher than: movies, anime, and even the guidebooks. I'd put it around the same level as interviews. I wouldn't accept it as pure canon (original manga) since it's kinda obvious that Toei had a big hand in writing the script since all their antics from their older movies are still there.

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